Scholarly Minutes IX
Minutes of the Lusty Argonian Historical Society
Mid Year, 3E 433
The Roll Call
Dhavin (chair)
Vandril Indoril (scribe)
Jo’Hamiir (present)
Shahavra (present)
Speaks-with-feathers (present)
Arielle Woodhouse (present) -er
Julius Cadiusus (present)
Varinturco (present)
Gondyr Armentine (present)
Desnia (present)
Orphala Orethi (present)
Ariella Plebeius (present)
Temis Demnevanni (present)
Ulrorn Blackbeard (present)
Quiritonwe (present)
Artonia Melus (present)
Approval of Minutes
The minutes were approved over numerous petty objections.
Several members want to lead the presentation, which I suspect will be more of a debate, on the Proper Pantheon. Might as well ask a dozen outlanders to debate the Proper Price of Muck. Arielle wins a vote to do the presentation. After last month, no one wants Varinturco to do it.
Presentation: Syncretism, Euhemerism, and Ariellism
Arielle is well-prepared again with pamphlets to hand out. The first column is for the official Imperial pantheon, and there are columns for “Elven,” “Nord,” “Khajiit,” and “Yokudan.” I note there is no column for the Tribunal faith or the older Velothian one. Some parts of the columns are filled in with the names of dieties.
Shahavra asks if there will be an exam.
Arielle says she wants to further demonstrate how Bretons look at the world through her presentation. Wonderful. She starts with the usual Imperial Eight Divines and says they usually correspond to deities of the same or similar names in other provinces. For instance, the Bretons have Sheor which is widely acknowledged to be the Imperial Shezzar, the Nordic Shor, the elven Lorkhan, or the Khajiti Lorkhaj. In this case, the etymology and history of worship is relatively clear.
Akatosh and Auriel are often seen as the same, but this one is not quite as clear. Auriel is sometimes depicted as a dragon, but of course so are Peryite and Alduin and that hardly means they are the same. Both are seen as the head of the pantheon by Altmer and Imperials, but Akatosh governs time while Auriel governs ancestry and is the example of how to live.
Desnia asks if she really thinks Auriel and Akatosh are separate. Arielle says she worships Akatosh as Akatosh only, but that there is room for debate.
Shahavra interrupts to say that Khajiti deities are mostly the same as Aedra and Daedra in other cultures, but with different names and different stories. Arielle says that is a good point, that the issues are mostly with minor deities and in reconciling Imperial and Altmer beliefs. Jo’Hamiir says that the Khajiti pantheon was forced upon them sometime in the Second Era. The correspondences are so close because they are the same deities imposed by the Empire (presumably he means the Second Empire), only renamed slightly for easier pronunciation, and given a few additional traits as an indulgence to the old Khajiti beliefs.
I admit, I am interested in what the beast says for once. Several ask at once what the original Khajiti religion was. Alas, Jo’Hamiir doesn’t know. Perhaps no cat knows.
Arielle says there are stranger theories, such as that Akatosh/Auriel and Lorkhan are all the same, “two sides of a coin” as she puts it before Quiritonwe and Ulrorn both stand up and start shouting at her. Arielle apologizes and says she doesn’t believe this, but that some say Akatosh was a creation of Alessia, an attempt to merge the opposites (in a sense) of Auriel and Lorkhan into a new deity that would be acceptable to all of Tamriel. Again, other members of LAHS become visibly upset at this suggestion. Arielle, not much for conflict, decides to pursue other topics.
This leads to the long lecture part of the presentation where Arielle explains at great length that the Alessian Order were as mad as Pelagius. They worshipped a single god, but instead of saying their god was Anu, for instance, they began trying to syncretize all Tamriel’s religions into one. The Aedra became Alessian Saints, and rather than make hundreds of Saints, they began claiming that various Aedra and heroes were the same being, therefore the same Saint. Some of them were merged under the flimsiest of pretexts. Some were deliberately suppressed.
Arielle says this hopelessly muddied the waters for future scholars, and now it is taken for granted by most that Akatosh and Auriel are one being. Some of their syncretism was certainly correct (she uses the example of Kyne and Kynareth), but much of it was speculative.
During this lecture, Julius, who has been enjoying himself a great deal this evening, looks a bit sickly and gets up to have a bit of fresh air.
Dhavin asks Arielle if she has a personal interpretation of which Aedra are the same or distinct. She answers by not answering. Her theory is that there are distinct et’Ada, but as most take little direct action, it is not easy for mortals to tell which et’Ada is doing what or has which traits. Some mortals are granted visions or commune with one of the et’Ada, but the words and visions are always influenced by the mortal’s own ideas. Thus, each culture interprets the actions and roles of the et’Ada somewhat differently.
I must say I prefer the simplicity of the Tribunal.
Shahavra asks about the less well known deities such as Ephen, Ebonarm, Ius, and Notorgo.
Arielle says Ephen is probably an archaic, Bretonic term for Jephre. Ius, as a god of animals, may also be Jephre, but there is very little records of Ius worship outside of dubious fiction. Some scholars think Ius was a joke between certain authors, so they’d use Ius as a name to avoid offending any real Aedra or their worshipers.
Ebonarm is known mostly from fiction, but there are shrines to Ebonarm in both High Rock and Hammerfell. Some believe Ebonarm is related to Zenithar. Some believe Ebonarm was one Reymon Ebonarm, a culture hero. Some believe Ebonarm is a manifestation of the HoonDing. Arielle doesn’t know of any non-fictional accounts of Ebonarm worship, but given the ancient and widespread shrines, she believes Ebonarm is a distinct et’Ada who has simply been forgotten.
Shandar was related to Stendarr, sometimes as a twin brother, sometimes as a rival or son. Shandar represented war and cruelty, the opposite of Stendarr’s mercy, but in many tales, Shandar rejects those ways and becomes merciful, almost like a Saint of Stendarr. Whether Shandar is a distinct et’Ada, a mortal, fictional, or an aspect of Stendarr, is not clear.
Some believe Notorgo is a mostly forgotten et’Ada, and a few believe he was a mortal wizard, but Arielle believes this is another name for Phynaster, citing the vaguely related roles of messengers and travelers.
Briefly, some of the other deities according to Arielle: Q’Olwen may be an epithet for Oghma. Raen was probably a prominent follower of Kynareth. Vigryl is a mystery. Varinturco says the Maormer worship an et’Ada that is somewhat like Vigryl, but refuses to go into further detail.
Dhavin then points to a drawing of an orrery in the material Arielle handed out and asks if Arielle can show which Aedra are which planets. She does so, and Varinturco begins adding his own interpretations. The summary is as follows:
Arielle
Akatosh
Arkay
Kynareth
Julianos and Stendarr
Zenithar, Mara, and Dibella
Varinturco
Auriel
Xarxes
Jephre
Trinimac and Stendarr
Z’en, Mara, and Phynaster
Varinturco goes on to say that Magnus, of course, is an Aedra, though not counted among the planetary Aedra, and that Magnus’ corona is Syrabane.
Quiritonwe rightly scoffs at this interpretation. As one example, she claims he assigned Phynaster’s planet to Trinimac and Syrabane’s planet to Phynaster and that Trinimac’s planet is “largely unknown to men” due to its orbit being “similar to Auriel, but further away, and currently occluded, last appearing shortly before the so-called First Empire of Men.”
Varinturco mocks her for believing in an occluded Trinimac, and her explanation of it is bizarre. Quiritonwe begins a loud and incomprehensible rant in Altmeris. Dhavin says Quiritonwe doesn’t have to take every disagreement as a personal insult. Varinturco says that while she certainly has that tendency, in this case, he was, in fact, insulting her. This leads to an an even more enthusiastic rant in Altmeris.
Dhavin is trying to call for a motion for them to cease, but everyone is shouting at once. Ulrorn walks up to the two, now nearly face to face, puts his arms on both their shoulders and asks if they need a time out. Or a spanking. Ulrorn, a bit deep in his cups tonight, offers to perform the spanking himself. “Just look at these thighs. Who else could put a high, so high, half a head higher than me even, elf...elf over their lap? Eh? Eh?”
At least this shocks the Altmer into silence. Ulrorn then staggers over to the chart, says it’s all wrong, states that Orkey isn’t quite Arkay, and then says, “Jhunal ought to have two moons. For...for...Tsun!”
Varinturco states that he believes Tsun may be a corruption of Phynaster. Ulrorn screams “Phynaster, Phynaster, Phynaster!” He spills his mug of sticky mead all over the drawing and says, “That’s more like it. Tsun as Phynaster. Who would have. And the gauntlet, too.” Then he takes a step back and trips over a chair. He draws his sword, much to everyone’s alarm, but he doesn’t get up. Instead, he rests the sword gently on the chair next to him. He points at the chair several times then mumbles, “He needs it more than me. Can’t go unarmed in a place like this.” Then he closes his eyes and begins his awful snoring.
Desnia asks if this is Snore, son of Snore. Speaks-with-feathers proposes that this is the best joke of the evening. Seconded by Ariella. The motion passes 8-4.
Arielle says Tsun and Rajiin are curious cases. They blur the line between mortal heros and deities, and it is not clear which they are. Dhavin wonders if the same could be said of Syrabane or Arkay, if they were once mortals, prior to their ascension.
Desnia asks what the Dunmer believe. I am saved from a less diplomatic answer by Orphala who says the Dunmer look inward, not to the stars. Indeed. I raise a cup to her.
Julius barges back into the Lusty Argonian, with not a thread on, covered in sweat. He stides confidently back to his place and proclaims that exercise is a wonderful cure for drunkeness. He proposes that the entire LAHS take five more laps around the city walls. After a brief silence, Julius says, “I second the motion!”
Desnia, though apparently enjoying the spectable, asks why he isn’t wearing his robe. “Don’t need it,” he says. “It’s a warm, summer night, perfect for a job around the city. Who’s with me?”
One of the serving girls brings him a clear glass of what might be glowberry juice. He gulps it down. “Refreshing!” he says, though his face puckers up. “Let’s all have some! I second the motion!”
Dhavin gently suggets that Julius should sit down and enjoy his juice.
Desnia then asks Dhavin if he can add anything about the Yokudan dieities. He says he disagrees with the correspondences, but it doesn’t matter to him what outsiders say about the Yokudan faith, and no one else in the LAHS is in a position to debate the topic.
The Debate: Portals: Fake or Menace?
Artonia, who has better eyesight and greater sobriety than I suspected, immediately objects to my title. Quiritonwe seconds. FINE!
The Debate: Are Long-Standing Portals Real?
Artonia opens by saying the debate is not about temporary portals that everyone knows exist. For instance, the Mark and Recall spells are a portal-like effect, but very short-lived, so much so that the portal moves rapidly over the caster instead of them stepping into it. Apparently this is why everything goes black, and sometimes there are brief visions, due to the interior structure of the portal.
She then lists a few portals and why they may not qualify:
The Weir Gate which led to the Battlespire was only semi-permanent because of constant maintenance by the Imperial Battlemages.
The Psijics allegedly have portals to Oblivion on their isle, but the isle is currently hidden.
Star Wounds, which are portals to Aetherius, but so far up in the sky that even airships can’t reach them. A few claim to have been through them one way or another, but there are no certain accounts.
There are rumors that the giant whirlpool in the Abecean Sea is a portal to somewhere in Oblivion. While most who approach it do end up in Oblivion, they enter it the usual way.
There are rumors of portals to Sovngarde in Skyrim, mostly in ancient tombs or temples. These might be permanent portals if anyone had any real evidence of it.
There are rumors of a portal to Aetherius somewhere in the Iliac Bay. No one seems to be able to find it twice, so it seems like it may be a myth.
Artonia asks the greatly diminished LAHS (at this point, only Artonia, myself, Quiritonwe, Dhavin, Speaks-with-feathers, Ariella, Shahavra, and a newly refreshed Julius are still standing) if anyone has certain knowledge of a permanent portal. Dhavin asks her why she is so interested in such a vague topic. Artonia seems flustered and upon further questioning admits that she made a bet that permanent portals exist. She cannot afford to lose the bet, so the LAHS are asked to find evidence that she can present to win the bet.
Speaks-with-feathers says there is a portal to the Shivering Isles not too far from the capital. Artonia says she has heard of this one, but it is currently inactive. She asks if anyone knows of a book that mentions the portal. There are a few suggestions which Artonia writes down.
Ariella says there is a permanent portal in the Imperial Dungeons that sends people to the town they were born in. Artonia asks Ariella how she knows this and if she can prove it. Ariella opens her mouth several times as if to speak, but eventually apologizes and says she cannot prove it. Quiritonwe says this is impossible, that portals and spells are not intelligent, and that they cannot divine your birthplace and move the other side of the portal. Ariella claims to have been through the portal twice. Dhavin is forced to do a call to order.
Julius, fortunately with a spare robe draped across himself, says a distant relative of his built a tower with portals to all the Mages Guilds in Cyrodiil. Artonia is apparently familiar with this example and says they are not permanent portals, but merely enchantments that cast a sort of Recall spell with an overridden destination.
Artonia is drowning her future sorrows with every failed example. She may no longer be with us soon.
Orphala says that the ancient strongholds in Morrowind were connected with a portal network. Artonia asks her a series of pointed questions. Apparently Orphala has used this network and can answer in some detail. Artonia concludes that this is also not a permanent portal, but an enchantment that casts a modified Recall spell.
Shahavra says that the Khajiit have Moon Gates that are permanent portals to various destinations. Artonia mumbles for more information, which Shahavra is happy to provide, but in the end, the only way to prove their existence is to visit one. Shahavra offers to show Artonia and whoever she bet against to the nearest of these. Apparently there is not enough time to make the journey and win the bet. Shahavra lends her a book, but it is in Ta’agra. Artonia reacts poorly too it, thinking in her stupor that she’s lost the ability to read.
Orphala suggests that if she really needs to win the bet, Namira’s best summoning date is coming up and surely she would know. Artonia says that might be worse than losing. She slumps off her chair onto the floor, somehow getting her boot stuck in her armor, and spends several moments trying to get it free while, shall we say, not losing the remains of her dignity, until Dhavin lends her a hand.
Speaks-with-feathers suggests taking up a collection instead of trying to win the bet. Artonia seconds enthusiastically. I ask how much the bet is for and she says two hundred septims. A mere pittance. I offer to pay it in full. She jumps up and down with delight, nearly falling over, but